Right.

Good afternoon, everyone. It's Dave Johnson and I'm joined today. By our senior specialists from our IT department.

Thank you.

Sandy Moretta, who's going to be our moderator. Welcome Sandy. And and Melissa Allman, senior specialist from advocacy and government relations.

Hello. So as Dave said,  I'm Melissa Alman and I have been Working as the senior specialist of advocacy in government relations for almost 6 years. And I'm pleased to be joined here by Dave Johnson, who is our new director of advocacy and government relations as of January first.

So we are working together to increase and strengthen and leverage. Our internal resources and efforts as it pertains to advocacy.

Yeah.

So Dave, is there anything else you want to say before I get started with the material?

Yeah, quite frankly, the seeing eyes made even more of a commitment to advocacy and government relations at a time when it would seem that access for people who are blind and choose to travel with guides.

Has gotten harder even in the very not so distant past. I think probably Morris Frank would be appalled if he knew the injustices that guide dog handlers are facing today.

And Melissa and I have worked together for nearly 6 years and I've been recently charged with playing a larger role in increasing our efforts to make access and travel for guide dog handlers better.

So what we need to do is fairly clear to us. Our path is not fully planned yet because it's pretty early in the game for us.

But we're going to do our very best. To help make the world a better place for guide dog handlers.

And so with that said, I think we should talk about what's at hand today, which is ride share issues.

So Melissa, off you go.

Yeah, so what I wanna say here about our very briefly about our agenda is I'm going to talk about some recent data that the CNI has obtained.

From our access barrier survey that we conducted at the end of last year. And by the way, I want to thank everyone.

Who participated in that survey. Because we wouldn't, you are the data. Okay, so that's why we have this information.

And then we're going to talk a little bit about some basic rights and responsibilities. With respect to rideshare use.

And for some of you that will be just a refresher. And for others that will be new.

And then we're going to talk a little bit more about some proactive steps that we as a community can take.

And we'll share with you a little bit about what our plans are as a school. So keep in mind that we're we're talking to you from the perspective of a.

You know of a guide dog school right and we are talking to you from our own schools perspective and we can't really speak to what other schools are doing, but if you are not a CNI graduate, But you are a guide dog handler or you need to know this information for some reason or another.

We're glad you're with us. And we hope that this will be useful. What I will start by telling you.

Situation is difficult. It is contentious. In some respects and it is evolving. Okay, so that's one thing I just want to wanna put out there.

The survey data that I'm about to discuss with you, we, because I know this is a question people have, we have not released it in written public form at this time.

There are some reasons for that. One of the reasons is that we want to consider using that data and using that information to get some media attention around the ride share issue hopefully on a national and and North American level but That's not something we can do if we if we don't do that the right way and we are taking long view as with respect to doing what we can to assist our community.

So there will be a report and there will be something for you to dig your teeth into a little bit.

At some point, but that is not going to happen. Today. Okay, so.

The survey that we did, excuse me. Covered a number of different access barriers. And today we're only going to talk about the rideshare aspect of it.

You, you may be, you may remember you may be people who did the survey. It was out in November and December of last year.

I'm sorry, October and November. It would closed on November thirtieth. And 526 guide dog handlers.

Throughout North America completed the portion of the survey. That pertain to ride shares. The survey was built with skip logic so that you know, if you weren't a guide dog handler, you were thanked for, for.

Looking at the survey and engaging with it but at that point it would end and then if you didn't fit up other criteria you were directed to one branch of the survey and so on and so forth.

So, 76% of the respondents. To the rideshare section in the US. Use ride shares with their dogs.

Okay, so that's a pretty high number, right? You know, 3 quarters of us are using ride shares and that was pretty consistent in Canada as well.

All right, so some of the reasons that people didn't use said that they don't use ride shares with their dogs.

In the US, 19%. Of the respondents to that part of the survey. Said that they don't take their dogs with them.

Anymore actually on ride chairs because they've heard so much about denials from other people. So we're in an age right now, right, where social media is widely used, people have all sorts of ways of getting the word out and communicating. People have all sorts of ways of getting the word out and communicating.

So this shows that People were heavily influenced by what they were hearing from others. And that result was very similar in Canada.

Now. For people in the US. There were about 7% of people. Who used to use ride shares that have that had stopped using them.

With their guides because not because of what other people had said but because of their own experiences with denials.

So that was only about 7% in the US, but it was 26% in the Northeast.

Region of the United States was which is kind of fascinating. And it's interesting too because that's also the region of the US where the highest number of people used ride shares.

You know, I mean, if you think about it, there's a lot of public transportation, there's a lot of you know urban areas there so that that might account for some of it.

And that was, that was, but interestingly in Canada. About 27% of the respondents.

Said that they stopped taking their dog with them being accompanied by their dog and ride shares because of their own experiences with denials.

Okay, so those are the people who said they don't use ride shares with their guides. Then we move on to those who do regularly use ride shares with their guys.

81% of those people. Have experienced a denial at some point. Okay, that's a really high number and 39% have experienced denials at least 25% of the time so that's basically like a fourth of your ride shares are denials.

Alright, so that's regionally pretty consistent. Across the US and that was the case in Canada as well.

One thing I want to say about the Canadian, results, if at some point I'm more kind of global with that it is because our sample size and Canada was fairly small.

We did not have very many. We did not have as many Canadian respondents. It was under a hundred.

And they were concentrated in Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario. So I just want to put that in information out there for our Canadian handlers.

The most common type of refusals Which should be no surprise to any of us were things like the driver saying no dogs and driving away or driving away without saying anything, you know, without communicating.

So that's those were the really common ones. There were others, but that was that was what really jumped out and that doesn't surprise us, I don't think.

In the US, 55%. Those who do use ride chairs. Say that they do not.

Take their dog with them at least sometimes, okay? Because of experiences with denials. And in Canada, it was much lower.

Interestingly, it was about 22%. So that doesn't mean that 55% of these these this 55% in the US and 22% in Canada.

That they always don't. Decide not to be a company by their dog. What it means is that at least sometimes they make that decision.

Okay, so it sounds like it varies depending on context. Alright, so there is one slightly piece of good news here.

90%. In both the US and Canada it was fairly well aligned here have had good experiences and and often have drivers that are courteous.

That that do not deny rides. Okay, so what that's something that we need to keep in mind, right, is that we have these horrible experiences, but most people also have really good experiences.

And I think that's something it's very easy to lose sight of. As we look at these ride share issues.

Far as situations where people Were not denied. But had negative experiences. Where the driver took the person but complained the entire time about having to take the dog.

We had 62% of ride share users experiencing that in the US and 50% in Canada. So that was not that was not awesome.

We were not happy to see that but we were not horribly surprised by that. All right, so what are we as a community doing about it?

What is the survey telling us about that? US and Canada, thank goodness the majority of people who are denied do file a complaint against the company in the app.

Alright, so one of the things that that says is that people are you know, there are times when people are taking no action.

We did have a contingent of people that were doing that, but most of the time people are doing something.

Alright, or at least a lot of the time. We do need more people in the United States to file complaints with the Department of Justice.

And I'm gonna talk more about that later, why that matters. But what I do wanna say to you now is that that's only 16%.

It's it is an extra step, but it's a very accessible step. And and we are seeing some we're beginning to see some activity there.

Hopefully people more people will file. In Canada, we think you should file, you know, if you're traveling in the US.

We did see some Canadian folks. Filing complaints with the DOJ. When they were in it, that's probably during US travel.

And it's it's important to file with the Human Rights Commission's if you can, when, within Canada.

Alright, so That's that. Some interesting. And rather striking bits of information that we were able to find out.

We broke things down a little bit by state. And remember, we had a harder time doing this by province.

Because of our sample size. But every single person in Minnesota, I believe that there were about 11. Respondents from Minnesota, every single person.

Who said they used rideshares in Minnesota, said they experienced denials. So that was a hundred percent.

Texas was a close second. In that list of the top 10 there were states like New Jersey, Massachusetts.

New York, Virginia. What I was very surprised by looking at that was I expected that States like Colorado and Florida.

Would have been way up there because we hear from people in those states a lot. What I will say though is that Colorado and Florida.

In their regions were the states that had the highest response rate and the highest level of engagement in that section of the survey.

So obviously that's consistent with the fact that people in Colorado and Florida are definitely reaching out and getting their voices heard on these issues.

Which is really important. Okay. So that's what I'm going to say about the survey data for now.

That gives you a sense of what we're seeing, where some of the problems are. And what work we definitely have to do.

Now I want to go back. And talk about some of the basic rights and responsibilities. That we as rideshare users and guide dog handlers need to just keep in mind or learn if we have and had the opportunity to do that so far.

All right, so one of the big things to keep in mind, the biggest thing to keep in mind.

Is that you have the right to be accompanied by your dog in a ride share. And you have the right to equal access.

So that doesn't mean you have the right to be accompanied by your dog in your serve, you're seeing your guide dog in a ride share.

But it means that you also have the right to equal treatment. Now, like I said, I'm very guide dog focused here, but I do want to make sure that I say that this applies to all service animals, right?

So as we know, the ADA protects in the US protects your right. To be accompanied by your service animal in public.

Or in other spaces that are covered and the reason that ride shares are covered is because even though these cars are belonging.

2 drivers and it's their private car. They have made a decision to open their vehicle up to the public.

So that is why the ADA in the United States and in Canada, human rights legislation applies. All right.

Uber and Lyft also have policies. That make it clear in no uncertain terms that it is not only against the law, but that it is also against their policies to refuse access to rideshare services.

Okay, so we've got We've got federal laws. We've got equivalent state laws.

We've got Lyft and Uber's policies on this. So we do have pretty robust.

Legislation and regulations and also policies that support our right to be accompanied by our dogs. And again, like I said, Canadian Human Rights Legislation is regulated by province.

Okay. The same the same rules at least in the US. And in Canada where but I'm going to talk about where things get a little different in the US, the same rules apply as the ADA to the with these policies because they have to by law.

So. That means it is illegal to deny access to a rideshare because of allergies.

The fear of dogs, religious preferences, it is illegal to require that the person disclose that they are accompanied by their dog ahead of time, although I'm going to talk about some reasons why.

I think we should be doing that or may benefit from doing that. And to require IDs. Or to charge a cleaning fee for normal.

Dog hair shedding that that happens. Right on the floor of the vehicle. But of course we are responsible for the control and supervision of our dog.

At all times. That means the dog should not be all over the place in the vehicle. We should have, we should have the leash.

We should have, we should know exactly where our dog is at all times. Regular grooming is very, very important.

Okay, so. You know, if you if you approach a ride share and they're perfectly willing to take you.

But then they can smell your dog or the it's very obvious that the dog is filthy and not well groomed that would be a reason for them to deny the ride or you start to get in the vehicle and your dog is jumping all over the place all over the interior of the car.

That indicates that in that moment, at least you don't really have the best control over your dog.

And that could potentially be a reason to. You know, to deny deny the ride. One of the things I want to say that's a little bit different in Canada.

Is that. So in the US, well, let me go back. So in the US, if a driver is not sure.

What if it is a service animal so it's very obvious with us with our dogs with our guides that they are service animals, but if somebody has a service animal and it's not obvious they can ask the 2 questions.

That are clearly also in the ADA regulations. Is it a service animal? What task does it perform right and that's true in the US.

But in Canada It's a little bit different. Definitions of service animal can sometimes vary by province.

Uber has a pretty clear definition of it in their policy in terms of it being an animal that helps.

Someone with a disability and performs a task. One of the things that I observed in my most recent review, which was today of Uber's.

A Canadian service animal policy is it does say. That there are some ways that you can identify. That an animal is a service animal and one way is that it's wearing.

You know, a harness or maybe it has a vest or something of that nature or some other identifying marker that it's a service animal.

Or that the person has some sort of documentation now in the US. That's not that's not legal to ask for that if the person shows it.

I guess that's one thing, but. And there are provinces in Canada where There is no, no requirement and it's not legal to ask for.

ID, but the the service animal policy that I saw. On Uber's website today. Said that if it's not obvious you know that it is a service animal there are a couple of things that you can do you can ask questions but there could be an identifying document.

That could help you just identify that that's a service animal. I'm not saying that that is consistent with every provincial law.

I'm just saying that that is what Uber has indicated and it's Canadian. Policy what is also in the Canadian policy.

Is that there are situations. Where a driver may. Be allowed to deny the ride if they have if they are a a member of a protected characteristic under Canadian human rights legislation, I think that could be religious.

Adherence or it could be a disability of some sort. And they're able to produce. After the, you know, once they're being questioned about denying the ride, they're able to produce a doctor's note.

Or a note from a cleric showing that they they have they are a member of a protected group.

But at the time of the trip, they are supposed to. Do their part to Wait and make sure that the rider is safe.

Do what they need to do to assist the rider to get another ride. So that's where it's a little different.

In Canada than it is in the US. One thing I will tell you is that We do have our CNI advocacy app.

There is a link to that on our, it's, it's now available for Android users and.

For iOS devices. You can go to seeing i.org slash. Access that's seeing I.

SEEI NGEY e.org slash access. And there you will find our.

He will find a link to our CNI advocacy app. Okay. And in that app, it does have.

Uber and Lyfts. Excuse me, US and Canadian. Well, I don't think.

Canada. I don't know that Lyft is functioning in Canada, but I don't think it is.

But it does have the the Uber and Lyft policies where we're available both for the US and Canada.

What I will say is our app like many other things is a work in progress. It is an evolution.

And so obviously things will come out of date and we will need to update things and we may not be able to do that.

As soon as the minute that things shift over, but I think that there's some updating that we need to do in the content that we have.

For Lyft. The the substance of it is not different, right? The same rules, same laws apply, but I do see that we could we could do a little bit of updating there to make sure that it's consistent with what's on Lyft's website right now.

Okay. So one of the things that I do want to address because it is a contentious issue. And after I, after I get done with my little.

Spiel here, Dave Johnson has some some helpful things to share with us, but The regulations, this this pertains to guide dogs not.

Not being a good idea to have your dog ride on the seat in a rideshare. There is some question.

As to whether Uber and Lyft. Believe that it is okay for a service animal to ride on the seat.

Certain circumstances where that is necessary for the animal to perform its task. But that's not really within the scope of what we're talking about today since we're focusing on guide dogs.

And so what I would say to you from a sort of a legal and handler perspective is if you read the regulations.

The ADA, the DOJ regulations. The regulations are pretty clear that goods and services that are available to patrons or customers or whatever you want to call us.

Those are for the people, not the dogs, which is why the regulations say that dogs are not to be on tables or chairs or in shopping carts.

So I think there is an argument to be made that the dogs should not be on the seat and that you may be charged.

A cleaning fee. If you're in a situation where you've decided to put the dog on the seat and there's hair and paw prints all over the seat, whereas on the floor that's that's a different issue.

You know, yes, there will be some dog hairs. Yes, there may be a few dog hair sticking to the back of the the seat in front.

But that is that's a bit different than what would be something that the next customer would have to experience.

If the dog was actually on the seat. So what I am hoping though is that Dave Johnson can speak up now and and share with us.

Some of your training wisdom about why we don't think our dogs should be on the seat. Again, other schools.

May have different perspectives. You are getting a CNI perspective here.

Yeah. I think what I would say, Melissa, is that We recognize that there are other type of service dogs that might be small dogs that would need to ride on somebody's lap.

But when it comes to our guides, as you know here at the CNI, we teach everyone to have the dog ride on the floor and it's not Just for cleanliness, it's for safety.

And I remember in my early career here. Being told. How badly dogs were affected if they rode on a seat.

And fell off of a seat. And I thought it was. I like what, huh? And I remember I've worked with more than one grad in the field, but I remember the first time I was sent out in the field but I remember the first time I was sent out it was a graduate who hadn't had his dog very long.

And had no choice but put the dog on the back seat of a very small car. And they had a fender vendor bumped from behind like nobody hurt just the simplest little tap on the on the bumper.

But the dog fell off the seat onto the floor. Just a little, you know, just rolled off like, And that dog.

Could not work traffic. Could not ride in a car and could not work traffic as a guide because it became so terrified of cars as a result of that silly little bump off the seat.

And, you know, it doesn't matter whether they're tethered in a safety harness or anything.

It's the actual. Action of being bumped while they're on the seat and whatever. Trauma they experience in their little brains.

That they don't seem to ever. I'm not saying I shouldn't say ever, but it's rare that if they're on the floor that they experience the same kind of trauma.

So, so keeping on them on the floor for their own. Physical and I would call it mental. Health is always better.

So I'll put a name in to that. That's what I got.

Okay, thanks. Thanks for that wisdom. Because that's a piece that you know, as important from a from a training and dog behavior kind of perspective.

So what I want to talk about now and I think I think that's the basics of our rights and responsibilities, but.

I'm sure that you, oh, and what I want to say too. You know, if you want to put a blanket down on the floor and you want to make it more pleasant for the driver so that the driver is less likely to be worried about dog hair on the floor, you are welcome to do that.

There's no legal requirement that you do it. But there are some people who really feel.

Strongly that that's a little bit that we can do to to make things a little easier for the driver.

So. And again, we want we want the drivers to want to take us. So if that's if that's something that you think works for you, one of the things that I do think happens sometimes because it's happened to me.

Is the driver will say hold on a second and they go in the trunk. And they get this like really gnarly disgusting blanket out that's been I don't even know where I don't want to know where and then they put it on the seat.

And I'm like, I don't wanna sit on that and I don't want my dog anywhere near it and then you just end up putting your dog on the floor.

Anyway, but if you bring your own that you know where it's been. That's that's just something to think about again.

It's up to you, but it's it's an idea. Yeah.

I might add something else here, Melissa, you had a really good question yesterday. When we were preparing and getting ready for this, you asked about what I felt about a yoga mat.

For this type of incident and anybody who's been to the Sing I and work with me might know that I've, I have used yoga mats.

I'll take a big long, yoga mat and cut it into pieces. You know, in half or so.

So that a handler can carry that and the dogs that are nervous. On transit buses or trains where they might slip on a floor.

Or we had somebody who was riding in a van and the floor was really hot. That thin yoga mat provides a really good surface for the dog to be comfortable and they don't slide on it.

But it does not prevent hair. It doesn't old hair. Like if you brought a towel or a blanket.

To protect feet that might do a lot more than a yoga mat would the hair just then fall off of them.

Some sticks to it, yes. But for the most part, it's not going to act as as good a barrier as a teller of a blanket if that was your MO, if you were gonna try and do that.

So I just thought I would say that the yoga mats have great purpose other purposes but they're not gonna.

Protect seat surfaces from hair so well.

Yeah, and that was that was something I didn't know. So, you know.

Good question. It was a really good question.

I still learn stuff, so there you go. So let's talk about what a denial might look like.

And for some of you, this is going to be like same old same old, you've heard this a million times because you experience it like all the time but for some people it might be new.

So the most common I think what you're you often the window gets rolled down or the driver just says, no, no, no, no dogs.

I'm not taking a dog. Okay, so that's that's one way the denial can manifest.

Another way it happens. Is you get absolutely 0 communication. And the driver just like glides on by.

And then they cancel the ride and sometimes suddenly your driver is reassigned and you get another driver and then And then, you know, sometimes the driver actually tries to talk to the to the writer.

And get them to cancel so that they will have a cancellation fee which I mean I would not be doing that because that's you know that's putting the burden on you to pay that cancellation fee.

So those are some ways that denials can happen, right? But it's but it's not just a denial.

There's also other ways to discriminate. Excuse me against people with with service animals and another way to do that is for example to give a bad rating I know people who have been.

Kicked off of the rideshare platforms. I feel like I hear about this a little bit more with Lyft and I'm not trying to pick on one company over another, but.

Where they are accused of violating the community guidelines because their writer rating has gone down too far. Because drivers have given them a bad rating.

And it's like there's and then you're told. That you are kicked off the platform because you violated community guidelines, but you're not given any due process or any way to appeal that or what to do about it.

So then some people write to the ride share company and say, I think this is a pretext.

Pretext for service animal discrimination and sometimes that that gets results. But bad ratings are a silent but but hurtful, harmful way.

To take the rider, but, but kind of make it difficult to use the platform on an equal basis.

One thing that I also hear about happening sometimes which I've never had this happen, but it sounds really terrifying.

Is to be dropped off early. The trip is terminated early. The driver finds a way to choose some sort of something in the app that allows them to terminate the ride early and then the person is dropped off at a place.

That they're not familiar with that they didn't think that they were going to that wasn't their actual destination and that may not be safe.

Okay, so or like I said that was evident from the survey data is just complaining the whole time or charging a cleaning fee for just normal dog hair.

So that's, something that, we see. Happening. Or you can have some sort of a pretext, right?

So one that I heard about. Earlier this week was the person was kicked off of a ride share platform.

Because they were told they violated by the the community guidelines by having somebody under 18 use their account. And this person does not have anybody that fits that description.

Who would have access to their account this person is well above 18 and has no desire to endanger children.

And so this was a situation where the driver was able to. Find what could be a legitimate reason to cancel the ride with no penalty to them that was not having anything to do with service animals and there are a few different reasons you can do that right like safety concerns or like an inordinate amount of traffic or construction.

And right or under 18 is is another one. So that was just an easy one that kept happening enough.

For some reason that this person was removed from the platform. And the strategy that they used was to reach out to the ride share company.

And this one was indeed Lyft to, to let them know. That they believe that this was a pretext and that really and pretext is basically like a pretend reason right made up reason when the real reason was that they were accompanied by their their guide dog.

And that got results very, very quickly. Alright, so that's something that can happen. That, we're.

We're denials. And one of the ones, one of the favorite ones used to be not wearing a mask.

But they can't really do that anymore, so they're using other ones All right, so that's this is all very doom and gloom and very upsetting, but let's now talk about some steps.

That we can take. All right, so here are some steps that you can take during and before the trip.

One thing that you can do. And I highly recommend this and I don't think I'm the only one that would recommend this.

Is to text the driver and let them know that you are accompanied by a guide dog. You could say guide dog service animal.

And because some drivers don't know what service guide dog means, but they know what a service animal is.

And that and then whatever else you want to put in there for me it's please speak my name when you arrive.

I'm blind and I and I need to be able to locate you. Because in like I used to live in a really urban area where there could be like 4 or 3 or 4 Ford fusions that pull up and I don't know which one you are and there could be a million cars and I don't know which one you are.

So that creates a record. That the driver knew or should have known that your dog was a service animal in the event that there is a denial.

Because Lyft and Uber's policies are that they will be removed from the platform. I think Lyft gives them 2 chances.

But if they if the investigation shows that the driver knew or should have known that that the dog was a service animal and if that's documented in the record.

By that text because that will be in in the chat history that they can see. Then that makes the investigation a lot more straightforward.

What what is probably best to do though is. Do this as early as possible. Because if your ride is 15 min away.

And it's 1 min away when you do that and now you've had a kerfuffle to use a very non technical term and you've had a denial or if you've had some situation and now you're waiting another 25 min for another lift or Uber that is a bigger waste of your time so probably better to do it.

Right away so that if there is going to be a denial, it happens soon and you can get another ride.

That doesn't make any of this okay, but it's just a strategy for managing the situation.

One of the things that you can do when the driver gets there if you send hesitance or that you're gonna be denied you know they're still the old tried and and sometimes effective strategy of.

You know, my dog's just gonna curl up on the floor in a ball at my feet.

You do have to take us by law and I she is just not going to disturb you my dog happens to be female so you know she's just gonna curl up here and she's not going to disturb you and you do need to take us by law.

So, you know, then start getting in. One thing that we absolutely do not encourage. Anyone to do it's it's up to you if you take this risk, but we think it's a terrible idea.

Is to force your way into the vehicle. We know graduates who have been hit doing this because the driver is pulling away.

You can have your foot run over. You know, it's just not a, it's not a safe.

Thing to do and your dog doesn't get a vote and if your dog's injured. When you do that, that's just not, that is just not a good thing.

So that's what we would say about that. Other things that you can do. Either during or after.

If there's a denial, you can, file a complaint in the app. Alright, so you can do it.

Within the app or you can call one of the Service Animal Hotline numbers. I am going to say these numbers.

I am also going to tell you that on our website on our transportation page under cni.org slash access.

We do have links both to Uber and Lyft where you would be able to find these numbers. But one of the one of the tasks.

That we will be undertaking is to update that page on our website. To make the information that I'm about to share with you more easy to find.

All right, so that is something that that was some feedback that I received and I think it's good feedback and that's something that we will be doing.

But for right now I'm going to say and and this webinar is being recorded so if you don't get the information you can you can get it that way too but.

The lift service animal hotline is 18445541297 That's 1 8 4 4.

5, 4, excuse me, let me start over. 18445541297.

And that is the lift service animal hotline number. You can call that one. Actually, as things are happening.

If there is a denial kind of going on and you think that they might be able to help facilitate a solution somehow.

Or help you get another ride whereas the Uber hott line that I'm about to give you this one you can only call to file your complaint once the trip has terminated.

Okay. And Ubers is. One, it's 18337158237.

That's (833) 715-8237 What I will say about that one is that we are aware there was a problem for a while.

Where if you called at certain times or from certain phones, you would be told that this was only a line that was available to drivers.

We got right on that with our over contact and they fixed it. So now there is an option that you can push for a service animal issue.

All right. Uber and Lyft can be a little bit vague about the actions that they take against drivers who deny.

People with service animals. I know that Lift. How it depends with lift. I think it's a little.

Sometimes people are getting emails that are saying that the driver is removed from the platform. I don't know.

If that is still the case. That seems to have changed from time to time. But I know that Uber.

Has a pretty sort of basic template of you know your driver has been educated about the issue. And that could either mean that they've been educated and given another chance because they didn't know or it wasn't clear or whatever the reason they be.

Or that could also actually mean that they were taken off of the platform. And Uber maintains that it can't share that information.

About its independent contractors with us in those emails. So. That's what I can say about that.

Other things that you can do besides filing a complaint in the app or calling the service. Animal hotline to file the complaint.

In the US at least. You can file a complaint or if you're traveling in the US, you can file a complaint with the Department of Justice.

You can go that do that by going to ADA. Gov. And from there, it's a very quick.

Keystroke to get to file a complaint. You know, if you're using Jaws, for example, it's just the insert F 7 for the links list.

You go there. And you can go to the Civil Rights Division and file your complaint. It's a very very straightforward process.

I know that I sound like a very broken record when I tell people to file complaints with DOJ. But I seriously think that it's very important that people do this advocates.

Who have been doing this much longer than I have are the reason that people who have worked very hard at this for many, many years.

Are the reason that at a grassroots level. Our community started filing complaints with DOJ. The Department of Justice because they only take cases if there's some sort of evidence that there's a pattern and practice of discrimination.

And they told the wrong advocate and this person knows who they are. That they weren't getting any complaints from guide dog handlers.

And that changed very quickly. So now, because of all of the complaints that people have filed, I can tell you that I have recently spoken to at least 3.

Of our constituency seeing I graduates who have had some communication with the Department of Justice about their complaint.

Because they are investigating and they are taking it seriously and I am sure there are many others that I don't know about.

So keep filing. Keep smiling, keep filing. I don't know that that just doesn't.

Those things don't seem to work well together other than rhyming, but just bear with me.

It's Friday. All right, so biocompile your DOJ complaints, especially if you have a bunch of rideshare denials.

And it's happened like 5 times in 2 months, you know. Make sure you provide the dates and as much information as you can.

So that they can investigate that. I am going to make a plug for the NFB ride share.

Because it is a It is a it is another way that data is being gathered and remember we are the data.

So if you go to nfb.org slash rideshare. You can do the survey that indicates what experience you've had on a specific ride with Uber or Lyft.

There was an issue, I believe, at the beginning of the year. That I and I and some others were having when we went on the survey and we were getting an error message.

But I do believe that has been rectified. So if it has not, reach out to NFB or reach out to NAG.

Do my understanding that is it's been taken care of. Another thing that you can do, which people have been doing and I encourage people to continue to do this, is to reach out to the media.

Because I think that the more media attention the more exposure we can get around these issues the more likely we are to be able to increase awareness, alright?

You can also explore seeking legal counsel. Because some state laws actually do have remedies that are not available at the idea at the federal level.

You know, the ADA. Does not allow that's that's not going to get you damages and it's it they're at the federal level we have the barrier of the arbitration act and you sign terms and conditions when you sign up to use these services, but there are some state laws that not only have damage provisions where you can get money damages and other things but also you can file in small claims court in some

states. Alright, so you may be able to find a private lawyer to represent you. If you if you think that your state has some strong laws and that's something that I can talk to people offline a little bit more about individually if that would be helpful.

But I also know that The NAGDU board has some folks who who know a lot about that as well.

One of the things that I have been thinking about And I think we could explore more is talking to legislators about coming down a little bit harder on transportation network companies.

That's TNCs which are companies like Uber and Lyft for violating anti-discrimination statutes like the ADA, right, and equivalent state laws.

Because these, A lot of states have within their code that pertains to transportations.

They have adopted nondiscrimination. Statutes and they require these TNCs to have nondiscrimination policies and they specifically state that you have to accommodate the to the drivers.

Have to be required by the TNCs to accommodate service animals. You know, states like Delaware, Hawaii, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire.

New Mexico, these are just some states that I know have these laws. And so I wonder what would happen if we tried filing.

Complaints or at least raising these issues. With the controlling authority for the transportation network companies. So that they know and and can consider finding.

The TNCs. If you know if these issues are pervasive. So that's just something that I've been thinking about.

I think other people are exploring. And if you just look up your state and find out. You know, who controls the.

Who is the controlling authority for the transportation network companies? In your state or who regulates. The transportation network companies that might be a strategy to to consider.

All right, so what is the CI doing? Again, I'm speaking only for our school at this point.

We have been part of along with other stakeholders in the industry. We've been part of a working group.

With Uber to try to work on a arriving at solutions to these service animal denial and unequal treatment issues.

And one of the areas that we've been very heavily focused on is driver education. And that's what I can say about that.

But what I can also say is that we have made an overture to Uber to plan a driver education event in New Jersey.

And host it here and we are opted that that is something that may be able to happen. All right, we would like to build our relationship with Lyft as well.

We are hopeful that that will be something that can happen. In the future and we also will be engaging.

I, you know, I don't want it to be this situation where we say to people this is what you should do.

And we're just here. We are also going to be engaging legislators and the media on these issues.

So stay tuned. And that's what I can say about that for now. I would like to open things up for questions unless you have anything else to add Dave.

I think There's one thing I want to mention that I know that we have some grads.

That have just opted to use Uberpap. And because they know they're not going to get denied if they have an Uber pet driver.

And that's always an option for people. What I don't know because I'm not an Uber user myself.

Is I don't know the differential in price.

Go ahead.

Okay.

So, sorry. So having investigated that recently, it is definitely several dollars. And I think it depends on the time of day.

And I think the availability of Uber Pet can vary. And I think one thing I can say about that is that There is no judgment on our part if you are in a situation where you decide.

You're just gonna use Uber Pet because you. Just don't wanna deal with the denial that day.

Right.

You don't have the mental energy or you are in an emergency situation with your dog. I have I know someone whose dog was very ill and they were definitely not going to take a risk of being denied.

So they they had to get to the vet and they used a newer pet and there was unfortunately, you know, an illness related accident and some things that happened.

So they were glad that they did that. But not and that's the situation by the way where you can be charged cleaning fee.

It just it happens we have to suck it up. But but that is something that people are sometimes choosing to do.

So no judgment here if that's something that you feel that you.

Yeah, I get the principal part of it that we'd like to not have to do that, but it is an option for some people.

Right.

It's interesting. So maybe we should review, what people need to do. I know I saw that there were All hands raised already for questions.

Okay.

And how they would raise their hands. Well obviously people already know how to raise hands because 4 have them up already, but we're kind of short on time as it is.

But Sandy or Moses, are you going to redo that? I'm not sure which of you.

Sure, yes, thank you. So I'm just going to monitor the questions, making sure everybody who raise their hands is and take us address their question and take us address their question and take us address their question and the way in the time they were doing.

So as a reminder, it's, and take as address their question in the way in the time they were doing.

So as a reminder, it's, A to unmute to mute and unmute. And if you're using the phone, it will be star 6 to mute and unmute.

So our April Martin.

Yes.

I'm sorry Sandy, I just wanted to remind everybody that it's star 9 on the phone to raise your hand and lower your hand and and it's star why sorry alt Y on the computer

Yes. Okay, there you go. So, yes, April, you can mute yourself.

You're already muted. And, I. You're on.

Move, thank you.

Okay, first. I wanna thank you both and congratulations Dave to your new role. I'm gonna make a comment about the yoga and blanket issue.

For my last guide I got a rough wear math that's kind of Anti slick or skin on the back.

And then it soft on the front and it rolls up and has Velcro straps. And I don't remember what it's called but it has a handle on it it rolls up and it's very compact.

And I got it from rough where it wasn't cheap. But it's machine washable and it's really really nice.

Did you find it to collect the hair? Was it good for stopping the hair from getting on a vehicle?

Good. Excellent. The software products are great.

It was. It's very good because it's got a It is. So, my actual question has to do with I've, I don't have a lot of access to Uber and Lyft and my small town.

So I only use them when I travel. And I've always used LIFE for a couple of reasons.

One because I can link it to my IRA account. And 2 because they were the first to use the guide dog or service animal.

. phone number So I just chose to give them my business. For those 2 reasons. But, Melissa, do you feel that they're That one company does more.

Then the other 2 kind of handle. Complaints in a better way than the other or do you have any feelings?

About that?

So what I would say is that I. Started out being primarily also a lift user. Living in Chicago I was often price shopping between the 2 companies because demand and supply would vary and my initial experiences this was back in 2,017 with lift.

I felt were a bit superior. This is my own personal experience. However, as time went on, I felt that for myself and then also for our constituents that it became.

Pretty much half a dozen 6 and one half a dozen of the other and it's sort of depended on region as well.

What I can say right now though is that I see Uber making a demonstrated effort. To engage with our community.

To try to address these issues. I am not going to say that there is not still rampant discrimination.

But I see an effort there. And I have points of contact there. That I find have been responsive.

I am hopeful that that's something. That we can develop a little bit more with with Lyft.

So that's what I will say about that.

Alright, next question Sandy.

Okay, thank you, April. Yes, thank you, April. So, Noel, you're next.

Feel free to mute yourself.

Oh no, my.

Hi. Hey Dave.

So just wanted to, and I won't go into all the storytelling and stuff. We were actually denied 4 times yesterday.

But, and so this was very timely. Say again? Yeah. Yes.

You're special. Yeah.

Yeah, so and I would just say so and, So I'm, we're now 2, 2 seeing eye dog household.

Okay.

And so the it's it's it's something to consider with with Uber pet that we experienced was the guy pulled up.

After getting 3 denials. We decided, well, we need to get to the appointment. So we'll do, we'll do repet.

And the guy said, we, I don't have room for 2 dogs and we said, well, can we show you and he just, I was like back up.

We need to back up because he just, we could tell that he was going to drive away and he did.

And so I don't know if anybody's ever, if you all have experience because we knew that we'd fit, many times before.

And so I've filed with Uber. And documented everything and we did contact the drivers before for that documentation purpose.

And so I just wondered if anybody had experienced that before and if there is something that we could have done differently.

That's a hard one. No, I have been I have witnessed. An almost denial on 2 people and, been part of successfully getting them into the ride because I just happened to be there.

And it was an ignorant driver. He didn't mean differently. He just, you know, he didn't know what he was doing and once we talked him into it he took the 2 of them and it was it was not about taking 2 people just about having a dog in the car at all.

And, Melissa, do you have insight on, on numbers? This is not something I have ever thought about.

It's a new one on me.

No, I really don't have Well, I have thought about it because I do know too I knew I know households that have 2 dogs.

Of course, of course we do. Manny.

And right but I would say that what I hear most about is. Denial and less about I can't take 2.

So I think you did everything that in my opinion is everything you could do you you were just explaining, you know, we'll both ride in the back.

We're gonna be able to fit our dogs. We can do this. We do this all the time.

And at that point, he was just pretty determined. He was not going to do it. So I don't know what you could have done differently, honestly. And I'm sorry it happened.

. Or

And please know, please file a complaint with DOJ. You know, go to ADA. Gov.

And if you need help, reach out to me. But as far as how to do it, but document all of those.

It's very important that they know. That people are trying to get somewhere and getting 4 denials in a row.

This is the kind of stuff they care about.

Okay, we'll do the next call. I'm sorry, we're running out of time, so just knowing.

Yeah.

Can we can we go a little bit over, right? Do you think we could kinda go a little bit?

Yeah, we could take a couple.

Yeah.

Sure. So Diana, Please feel free to, unmute yourself.

Okay, one technique that I have found successful for getting the dog hair issue dealt with. Is something that I developed when one of my nieces was extremely allergic to my dog but she didn't want me not to come to family events that she was present at.

Right.

I invested in a canine top coat. Which looks like a pair of pajamas for a dog like her spandex goes down to the top of the paw.

Covers the legs, the entire body, only the head and the tail are really sticking out anywhere. And then when you pair them with a rough wear shoes.

Actually turned it into a Halloween costume by adding a cape so he could be super dog.

But Yes, I'm being in a like Chris Bandex suit. That makes pretty evident your dog isn't going to leave a lot of hair.

It's true. Yeah.

So it's just. You know, if you want to minimize it as much as you can from your side, then you don't have to carry a yoga mat or a towel or whatever.

The dog's wearing what he needs.

So, yeah, I'd like to talk about that a little bit. Thank, thank you for that point, Deanna.

So as being part of the International Guide Dog Federation, we get to travel the world to go to international conferences.

We meet all over the world. And it's fairly normal. In the Japanese culture. For them to cover the dogs and clothe the dogs so that they do not leave hair in vehicles.

And it started as a very practical thing. And then it sort of became a fadish fun thing.

And people started dressing their dogs. I remember one little farmer dog with overalls and all this, but he was completely covered and that the society is all about cleanliness.

So it's very effective over there. I just had a grad. Reach out to us this week.

Knowing this was coming up and say this would be a good idea here if we would provide, you know.

Cover-ups for the dogs like this and My, it does work. It absolutely works. It contains the hair and so on.

The amount of resource that goes into it for any organisation to provide that for a dog is insane because they all fit so differently and you needed to fit your dog.

But you can find them, you can purchase them, and they're fairly easy, easily, applied to the dog.

You can do that. It's not necessarily gonna stop somebody who just says no dog, no dog, no dog.

They don't want the dog, no dog, no dog. They don't want the dog in the car.

But it will, it does help on the hair. But it will, it does help on the hair. So it's a really good point.

And that with the with other things like the the rough ware. Covers and so on. It's it's pretty effective.

So, all right, next.

Okay, so next one is Ashley. Are you gonna unmute yourself now?

Hi, I just had a question. I did to the refusal and if you tell somebody that you have a guide dog so I always say I am blind I have I travel with this thing.

If they like cancel your trip and then reschedule it or then like send you to somebody else, do, do they have record of that?

To like be able to say then to Uber, my trip was canceled and looked at 4 times before.

Somebody actually showed up if so like if they don't pull up and deny is it still trackable?

Hey, you're on.

Yeah.

So am I, am I. Unmuted. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, okay, so that did not used to be possible.

Uber, my understanding is that that has now changed. And if someone is not having that experience, please feel free to reach out to me and let me know that because I'll be curious.

It's correct.

But my understanding is that that is that now in the Uber app. You can see that and I think you can with lift.

Well but that used to be a really big problem. I would like to know. Reach out to me at advocacy at CNI.

Dot org and let me know if. People are still having trouble locating those trips. In their ride history.

Because but one way you could deal with that is by calling the hotline too and saying I don't want to file against the wrong driver.

This is what happened and I don't see it in my trip history.

And that's something that they can pull up then. Okay, all right, great. Thank you.

Yes. Thanks for the question.

Okay, but now is, phone with extension 5 1 8. Please you can unmute them

This is Mary Beth Metzger. Congratulations, Dave. I'm Melissa.

Oh, thank you.

And thank you so much to the CNI for, for taking this amount of time to address this issue.

I just. I think, you know, as a long term guide dog, you this issue has, it's like you said, it's so much harder to work a guide dog now and have it be accepted than it ever has been.

The question I had was about, for instance, in New York State, if If I get refused, as I did a few times, to go to a restaurant.

That's a civil offense, but not a criminal offense. Is it, is it? Is that how you determine whether or not you can, can, you know, go to any kind of other legal means and small claims court by that.

By that definition or what is it?

So, you would look at the, you would look at this, the law in your state.

Okay.

And, and, and see what it says about whether or not you can recover money damages. And I think that at that point it would be a good idea to.

To reach out to a lawyer and find out if if that's something that's viable.

Or you know you could just try it but I think it depends on how the state statute is written.

Okay.

One thing though as far as when you talk about civil offenses versus criminal offenses they're about 37 or 38 states.

New Jersey is unfortunately not one of them, but I think New York is where an access denial is some sort of criminal offense, although it is a low-level offense or at least it's a finable offense.

I did that. It didn't work.

So you could also potentially call the police. But people have had burying success people people have had that sort of starting to say is people have had varying levels of success with that because the police don't know about these laws.

Okay.

So that's one of the reasons we have the app. Is so that it's easier for people to point to these laws and say this law does exist.

Here it is. Here's what it says. So that's not going to make the police necessarily listen more.

Alright.

Often a lot all the time but it is going to help us raise awareness in a situation where the police are not super educated about this.

Okay.

I think I'm gonna take the moment to talk about police training a little, Melissa. We did some due diligence.

How long ago did we release the police training, Melissa, in New Jersey? Was it, it's over a year, right?

A year and a half.

Oh yeah, we released. Oh, whoops. We released it back in March of 2023.

So coming up.

And it was, it was, it was a It was a specifically New Jersey. Focused.

We started in our home state. Yes. And.

Yeah, it was about it was about interference and access. Yeah. Directed at first responders.

And what we learned. What we learned is at least in the state of New Jersey, which I assume it's broader than the state of New Jersey.

Police have no training in this. And so we developed a course for this. Their courses are provided. Through online platforms, very specific online platforms.

And officers actually get to choose. The courses they want to take as continuing education. So we have to hope and pray that they take the course that we've selected.

We're assuming in this time frame, the last number we had, I think was 2 60, wasn't it?

Yeah, it's it continues to increase.

Melissa a while ago. So we're assuming it's probably 300. We're hoping 300 or more, but if you think of Probably the number of police officers in the state of New Jersey.

It's a small fraction, but it's it's a start. It's just discouraging because, you know, I always thought as an instructor training students I'm like of course the police know call the police they're gonna know they're gonna help you.

And and it's not like it's the case, not always. Because they're not always informed.

And some departments can make the course mandatory if they want to, but it's up to them.

Yeah.

Okay, so next is Leslie. You can unmute yourself.

Okay.

Thank you.

Hi, Dave. Congratulations and thank you, Melissa, for this. Session. Sorry, I'm just getting over a little bug here.

I just wanted to say. Sorry that in the Canadian perspective. Okay. Sorry, it's

Hmm, a different cloud. To. I.

I'm sorry. You know what? I think I have to pass. Yeah, and I'll get on laws and can I go on in a second?

You can try.

Okay.

Stuart, sure. I'll just mute you for now, okay? Okay, so we'll go for Okay.

I'm glad I'm not with you, Kay. That doesn't sound good. I'm so sorry.

They, thank you. Alright. I know, I know. Yes, sir.

Okay, we're good now with Linda. Linda, would you mind to, mute yourself?

Linda Hunt.

And to unmute on your. IPad, I believe is all today.

Might take somebody else Sandy.

Yes, okay.

Let me try one more time.

Linda? Okay, we'll try with Kim. Oh, Kim? There you go.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, am I, are you hear me okay? Yeah, I, have a dog from another school.

I've been so grateful for this. This is wonderful. Couple of points and then a question one is that I live in Canada in Ontario and we do have left here just so you know.

And the other thing is I have been told by my municipality to file complaints with the bylaw officers here, which I do when whenever I get a what refusal, which is often.

There we go.

So they also want to know this because the municipality has licensed Uber and left to be here and they don't want them to be here if they are doing.

These sorts of things. So the bilateral systems are very nice. They try to take them. They don't always succeed in finding.

The drivers, but they really like to have it on file. So I know it's another step, but I also do that.

My quick question was about Overseas. So before COVID. Uber SIS was here.

I tended to use Uber assist because they, you know, said that the drivers had more training.

I found I had less fewer refusals. When COVID started, Ubersis sort of disappeared from the app and it has not returned.

Is that still? Is it still a thing? Is it still worth pursuing it?

I just haven't heard about it for a long time, so that was my question.

So, that's okay. First of all, I wanna address your first point. Thank you very much for sharing.

That you've had success. Reaching out to the bylaw officers about this and that the Municipal, this is my point earlier that I was making about you know who's licensing and allowing the operation of these transportation network companies in the state or in the province or in the municipality and what can we do to raise awareness to them about these issues.

And that's what you are doing and it's working. So first of all, thank you for sharing that and I'll.

File that away as a piece of information for our other. Ontario constituents. So thank you for that.

As far as Uber assists, I have not heard about it in a long time. And so, but that's something that I can ask if that is something that.

Is gonna come back or. If a version of it is going to reappear and maybe someone else knows something about it that I don't, but I'm happy to ask them.

Okay, I know Linda, you are muted, okay? I'm gonna ask you to see if you can speak now.

Okay. Okay.

I mute yourself. There you go. Perfect.

Better. But

No worries. Okay.

Thank you. Sorry about that. Yeah, much better. So I, I found, I have recently, while 5 years, Toronto.

Canada to, a smaller town and when I was in Toronto, I found that, lift and over but mostly lift were pretty big on denials and especially if I was with another friend with a guide dog.

Okay.

So taking 2 dogs, it was almost a guarantee that that they would say no. And but I just wanted to say what I've done here in a smaller town is, I, set up an account with my cab company here and I set up an account with my cab company here and I set up an account with my cab company here and I said look if you can you know assure me that your drivers company here and I said look if you can you know assure me that your drivers will

be educated regarding service dogs. Set up an account and pay it, you know, every month. And so that has worked really well.

I know in a city that's not practical, but. But I wanted to say that for some odd reason, it seems that people here in in this northern community.

Keep saying, oh, where's where's the vest? That's not a service dog.

Yeah.

Where's the vest? And so I wondered.

Yeah, we're hearing about that a lot in Canada lately.

In Canada, we hear that. Yep.

Yeah, and I wondered if there's any way that we could make, I mean, I think frankly a harness is pretty obvious, but you would be shocked how many people don't get it, you know.

And so I wondered if there is another obvious identification marking that we could. Attached to the harness.

I just don't know but It is really a problem, you know, it's ridiculous, but Yeah, do you have any ideas about that?

It's just incredulous to me. And that, you know, I just, I just find it hard to believe how obvious it is when somebody, a guide.

Good morning. Okay.

And they're visually impaired and looking for a ride that they ask you if you have a fast.

Okay.

It's like. And and the vest stuff didn't start until Well, service dogs have been using them, we know that, but they proliferated with fake surface dogs and, and, So.

Well.

Do I have an answer? No. Melissa, do you?

Well, yeah, and I have. No.

Yes.

Hmm.

No, so what I don't have an answer. I think you should just persist with the harness and continue to educate what I think that one of my, you know, somebody that I know has worked with dogs for a long time and is a lawyer and you know he said at 1 point he said you know it used to be so obvious that this thing on the dog's back was a harness and that was

all anybody needed. And, and that seems to have changed, but I think part of that is because we have so many.

People who are benefiting from the use of service animals. That have disabilities legitimately wonderfully benefiting.

Okay.

That don't need harnesses or. Paraphernalia to work their dog that's necessarily obvious.

Right, so now that that has happened, plus you add in people who are abusing this. This change.

Right.

You've got so much confusion and I think that's why we're seeing a lot more of this.

But I have a question for you. I was getting the sense that people in Canada. In certain parts of Canada that lift was harder to get than.

Uber, has that been your experience or not really?

Okay, so I'm not making that up. Alright, okay.

That's my experience, yes. Yes. No. And yes, I think that's, and I have a friend who is also a blind lawyer in Toronto and he he waits till the, Uber driver is.

Is within 3 min away and then says, by the way, I have a service dog and I said, why do you do that?

And he said, because I figured they've spent this much time getting here. And gas, they're not they're not likely going to dump me now.

So that was kind of an

Okay.

Well, I think that might work better in more rural areas, but in urban areas they can just get somebody else in 2 s.

So I think that depends on where you're located.

Well, thank you, Kay.

Sure. It probably, yeah. Well, thank you so much. Excuse me.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kay. Okay, so Linda, I believe you, you're, you can unmute yourself.

Thank you. Okay.

Oh, sorry.

Oh, Linda is muted again.

Let's try that one time.

I think we ought to wrap up, Sandy.

I think that's a yes.

Are we a lot of people?

There's, yes.

Well, thanks. Yes, so thank you everyone for attending. This was great and Pretty well attended.

I'm delighted with the number of attendees and wonderful questions. And we'll look forward to the next webinar.

I do want to add though before we before we because I see that more hands are coming up and so I do want to say before we sign off.

If you have questions. Feel free to email advocacy@cni.org. Advocacy at seeing i.

Dot org. And if you're not, even if you're not one of our graduates, I will do my best to answer your questions.

And if I need to refer you to your own school or to another organization, I will say that and Dave will be there to help to answer questions as well.

Yep. Alright, thanks everyone. Have a wonderful weekend.

Yeah